Syrian President Bashar al-Assad was ousted from power on Sunday following more than a decade of civil war in the country. His family had ruled the nation for 50 years.
It came after rebel forces swept through the country at astonishing speed in less than 10 days to topple the government, led by the group Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham.
The World’s Host Carolyn Beeler spoke recently with Martin Smith, the first Western journalist to interview HTS leader Abu Mohammed al-Jolani a few years ago for a Frontline film called “The Jihadist.”
Carolyn Beeler: Tell us about al-Jolani’s origins and his group’s motivations.
Martin Smith: So, he was a figure that came into Syria and he had been fighting with al-Qaeda in Iraq, and then with ISIS. He went to the head of ISIS and said, “Look, I don’t want to be fighting the Americans here. My goal is to topple Assad. And so I want to go back to Syria and fight the Assad regime.” And he was given a lot of cash and he went in there and set up his operation in the northwest corner of Syria, the Idlib province.
You met with al-Jolani there in Idlib for a documentary film called “The Jihadist.” What was that meeting like for you?
It was pretty interesting to have a chance to sit down with somebody who had been backed by al-Qaeda and had worked under Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the head of ISIS. He had made clear in the lead up to this interview that he was trying to come out of the cold and he wanted to make that plea to the West, that he wasn’t wanting to do anything more than to fight against Bashar al-Assad.
So, that’s an image pivot that he is continuing to try to make, today. When you were meeting with al-Jolani live, you drove around the territory. In a clip from the film, you said: “I spent seven days in Idlib, seeing, of course, what Jolani wanted me to see and hearing what he wanted me to hear.”
Do you remember what he was showing you in that clip and, more generally, the picture he was trying to paint of Idlib for you?
Do you remember what he was showing you in that clip and, more generally, the picture he was trying to paint of Idlib for you?
Well, he wanted to show me that they were governing the province successfully and that things were generally at peace. They were facing bombings from Russian jets in parts of Idlib, and there was an ongoing battle with Assad’s forces in part of the province. You know, he was quite proud of the government that he had set up and sponsored.
And did you come away from that reporting trip convinced that he had made the transition from, you know, al-Qaeda operative to someone who was actually effectively governing this region?
I did. I thought he was sincere. I wasn’t sure that he was really a progressive in any sense. I mean, he subscribes to Sharia law. He’s not encouraging democracy in Idlib. And his strictures on women’s rights were what you might expect from somebody committed to Sharia law. And there were credible reports of torture in his jails. And we featured that, as well.
Al-Jolani spoke to CNN in an interview that aired today, and he said HTS and other groups in this rebel coalition are talking about the project of building Syria. What do you make of that?
I mean, his vision of Syria is not a Jeffersonian democracy by any stretch. I think that even when he fought leading the al-Nusra Front, the al-Qaeda faction, he wasn’t doing what ISIS did in the north, which was to terrorize in order to gain power. He was attacking more or less military targets. He tried not to hit civilians. That doesn’t mean that he didn’t. But he said, “Look, I don’t have the kind of fighter jets and whatnot that I can use, so I use, I do use suicide bombers, and that’s what’s getting us where we are.
Al-Jolani’s group, HTS, appears to be calling for inclusion with respect for minority groups. Do you buy that message, given his history?
I do. I think there’s been a trend in this. We had brought up to him in the interview, I asked him about certain incidents in which there were claims that he had gone after minority communities. There were these allegations and they didn’t all hold up. And in fact, they had spared the lives of Christians. And when we dug into it further, it was clear that he was trying not to exclude other groups.
Assad’s regime forces have been moving away from numerous regions in Syria right now. I don’t want to ask you to speculate too much, but from what you know about his history, do you think that HTS and al-Jolani might be playing a major role in the country’s future?
It’s still hard to imagine, but I think it’s possible. The allies for Assad are weaker. And this is why al-Jolani has struck now, because he’s read the tea leaves and he sees this time as an opportunity.
This interview has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.
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